DINOSAUR DISCUSSION 0
A Matter of Time
Do we need the 10,000 yr fossilization rule?
Earlier I had run across the quote:
Fossil
Fossils are the preserved remains, or traces of remains, of ancient animals and plants.
Fossils are not the remains of the organism itself! They are rocks.
A fossil can preserve an entire organism or just part of one. Bones, shells, feathers, and leaves can all become fossils.
Fossils can be very large or very small. Microfossils are only visible with a microscope. Bacteria and pollen are microfossils. Macrofossils can be several meters long and weigh several tons. Macrofossils can be petrified trees or dinosaur bones.
Preserved remains become fossils if they reach an age of about 10,000 years.
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
This gave the suggested fossil formation time as 10,000 yrs or more. Assuming this for the dinosaurs this quote became the backbone for most of my dinosaur discussions 1 through 9.
But working through discussion 9 I found that National Geographic had changed this quote.
The new quote as of April 2025 now looks like:
Fossils are the preserved remains, or traces of remains, of ancient organisms.
A fossil can preserve an entire organism, just part, or traces of one (for example, footprints). Bones, shells, fur, skin, footprints, feathers and leaves can all become fossils.
Fossils can be very large or very small. The smallest fossils are called microfossils and are only visible with a microscope. Pollen fossils are microfossils. Fossils you can see with your eyes are called macrofossils and can be several meters long and weigh several tons. An example of a macrofossil could be a petrified tree or a dinosaur bone.
Preserved remains are defined as fossils if they are older than 10,000 years old.
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
It’s a different way of saying it but it is not exactly the same. This is more of a sterile definition and is not exactly saying that preserved remains require a minimum of 10,000 years to BECOME fossils.
So I decided to have another search to see if I could come up with a better definition or minimum time required and so on.
I did find some quotes that suggested they may only need 1,000 years or a lot less.
And I wondered is this going to put my discussions 1-9 in a muddle?
Short answer: No.
But I will need to rewrite the bits of my discussions that lean heavily on the old quote.
That’s a work in progress and as of 21 April 2025, my discussions still had the old quote being used. All updated now, see following...
Discussion 1 now updated. A complete rewrite from top to bottom.
Discussion 2 now updated.
Discussion 3 No update required.
Discussion 4 now updated.
Discussion 5 now updated. Some parts rewritten, but mostly an overhaul. But for other reasons.
Discussion 6 now updated.
Discussion 7 now updated.
Discussion 8 now updated. This was a complete rewrite from top to bottom. For other reasons.
Discussion 9 updated. Any further discussions will not be using the old quote.
So this page is going to investigate this problem of a minimum time for fossil formation. Specifically the dinosaur fossils in the Cretaceous rock layers. These are the only ones I am interested in for the Flood model for the construction of the geologic column.
Say for example we determine that the fossil for a T rex took 15,000 years to form, then this dinosaur couldn’t have been buried approximately 4,000 years ago in the Flood of Noah. And that implodes the whole geologic column. That’s all we need to do it.
But even if we can’t get that the column still implodes at the Flood anyway just on depositional results. Everything is in the wrong spot. Large heavy dinosaurs should be in the lower layers and tiny small dinosaurs [there are plenty of them] should be found in the very top layers.
They aren’t. All the non-avian dinosaurs are found in the Mesozoic layers roughly in the middle.
This just means on this alone they were not buried at the time of the Flood.
And this means that the whole geologic column could NOT have been formed at the time of the Flood. And from a 6,000 yr Christian perspective this doesn’t leave too many choices.
If these rock layers were not laid down then, then when?
Not through the antediluvian period especially if it had not rained. [this is debatable but very interesting theologically]
That leaves the Creation point and a suggested complete fabrication.
But a fabrication also works at the Flood point, though logic would push this back to the Creation. There is one other possible point and I mention it in discussions 6 and 8.
Anyway the point I am making here is if I still can’t come up with a reasonable minimum time for the T rex fossil formation, the final conclusions I have made in discussions 1 through 9 still have some validity.
OK let’s move on and chase this fossil formation time. And as you will see, that may not be the only time we require or be necessary. If we can’t nail down a reasonable time we may only need the time required for the Cretaceous layers to form. If they supposedly took millions of years [they won’t] then it’s still game over.
The T rex fossil and the rock layer it is found in stand and fall together. If we can’t obtain the time it took for the buried T rex bones to become fossilized but the rock layer it was found in took 11,000 years to form, that still works. This rock layer could not have been formed from the time of the Flood approximately 4,000 years ago.
All right. Let’s get the ball rolling…
How long does it take for fossils to form?
Fossils can take millions of years to form. The length of time it takes for a fossil to form depends on several factors, including the type of organism, the environment, and the process of fossilization.
https://studymind.co.uk/notes/fossil-formation/
How long does it take for fossils to form?
Fossilization is a slow process that can take millions of years. The exact time depends on factors like the type of organism, environmental conditions, and geological processes.
https://geologywithfun.com/journey-of-fossils-how-are-fossils-formed-and-discovered/
In conclusion, the amount of time needed for most fossils to form is 10,000 years. This is the minimum amount of time required for an organism to be buried and preserved in sedimentary rock.
https://splicedonline.com/how-much-time-is-needed-for-most-fossils/
Ref: National Geographic: Fossilization
How long does it take for a shell to become a fossil?
Answer: Fossils are defined as the remains or traces of organisms that died more than 10,000 years ago, therefore, by definition the minimum time it takes to make a fossil is 10,000 years.
https://geoscience.blog/how-old-is-an-ammonite-fossil/
Fossils are often said to take a million years to form. However, as of 2014 it has been proven that a fossil can take a shorter period of time to form. This period can be a thousand years or less. The earliest fossil discovered dates back to about 3.5 billion years; however, there are fossils that have been discovered to be only a few years old.
https://www.reference.com/world-view/long-fossil-form-f4f217114e4a0440
At this point this looks like a can of worms. And the more I dug [yes there’s a pun] the more craziness I found.
A bit like Evolution. At the first hint of Natural Selection, the evolutionists will cry out, Evolution! Christians will of course say, wait a minute, that’s just Natural Selection.
Looks like a similar thing happening here.
The original quote from National Geographic had:
“Fossils are not the remains of the organism itself! They are rocks.”
Which was pretty much my view of it. In short, all of the original organic material, bones etc, had been completely replaced.
Example quotes:
4. Mineralization and Petrification
Timeframe: Thousands to millions of years
Description: This is the key phase of fossilization, known as permineralization or petrification. Minerals dissolved in groundwater slowly replace the organic materials, or fill in the spaces within the organism’s remains. This process takes thousands to millions of years. For instance, petrification of wood might take a few thousand years, while the mineralization of bones could span millions of years.
https://sciencenotes.org/what-is-a-fossil-definition-types-examples/
So a better definition of a fossil is needed?
A very loose description is:
What are fossils?
The word ‘fossil’ comes from the Latin word fossus, which means ‘dug up’. This refers to the fact that fossils are the remains of past life preserved in rock, soil or amber. Generally, the remains were once the hard parts of an organism, such as bones
Fossils with some organic material preserved
Mineralised fossils
https://australian.museum/learn/australia-over-time/fossils/
So maybe at the end of the day this is far from clear.
As an example I looked for latest human fossil finds:
Bottom of the list gave Ötzi at 5.3 (3230 BC) but Ötzi is “the natural mummy of a man” so not a fossil.
The next one up was
Bessé’ at 7.3–7.2 thousand years date.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils
Besséʼ (pronounced [bəˈsːɛʔ]) is the prehistoric fossil of a young woman over 7,200 years old found in the Indonesian island of Sulawesi.
DNA samples recovered from the inner ear bones ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bess%C3%A9%CA%BC
Bones? At that point I wondered was this a real fossil?
The page was stated as “List_of_human_evolution_fossils”
Are they?
So I went way up to
WLH-50 29±5 Homo sapiens 1982 Australia
So this is supposedly dating to 29 ka or 29,000 years ago.
And opening this page up I found:
Fossil WLH-50 is a partial cranium fossil that was discovered in 1982, in the Willandra Lakes Region of Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLH-50
So this find is definitely listed as a fossil.
Then there was a section of determining the age of this fossil:
Determining age
The fossil was discovered in a lake basin that undergoes several drying phases throughout the year. These phases cause displacements in the surrounding sediment and stratigraphy, thus making it difficult to properly date the fossil.
And then mentions Radio carbon dating.
Wait a minute? If fossils are rocks can they be dated using radio carbon dating?
9. Why can’t you carbon date stone?
Stone cannot be directly carbon dated unless there is some organic material embedded or left as a residue. Carbon dating requires the material to have once been part of a living organism.
10. Why can’t you carbon date fossils?
Carbon dating is rarely applicable to fossils because carbon-14 has a half-life of 5,730 years and is accurate only up to about 75,000 years. Fossils are often much older than this.
https://www.ncesc.com/geographic-faq/why-cant-we-use-carbon-14-to-date-rocks/
OK looks like some fossils can be carbon dated. But this fossil in question then got more interesting:
Radio carbon dating
In 1981 and 1982 the Australian National University radio carbon dating lab tested the carbonate that encrusted the bone, …
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLH-50
Ah, so this fossil is more bone. So is it a fossil or is this just a change in the classification of a fossil?
OK this was now heading into possibly being a long run around and we can avoid all of that by simply saying…
Some fossils may be only thousands of years old BUT the fossil we are interested in is a T REX in CRETACEOUS rock layers.
That changes our outlook here completely.
Could this T rex fossil have been fossilized in less than 1,000 years? 10,000 years? 1 million years?
I’m talking here using natural processes of course.
And again if we can’t nail this down we will move on to the Cretaceous rock layer formation time required, again using natural processes.
Most dinosaur remains disappear without being preserved. Other animals eat or carry them away. If it’s lucky, the dinosaur’s body is quickly buried by sediment.
This process can happen in a number of ways. For instance, a river might sweep away a carcass and deposit it in a lake where it sinks to the bottom. Or, a dinosaur could die in a sandstorm and be buried by blown-in sand.
Over time, the sediment around the body hardens into rock. This process can take millions of years. In the meantime, the carcass decomposes, leaving behind a cavity in the shape of the dinosaur.
Eventually, minerals from the groundwater fill up this cavity. As they do, they slowly harden into a fossil. And voila! You have a dinosaur fossil!
https://thedinosaurs.org/fossils/how-dinosaur-fossils-formed
From this quote our T rex fossil could take millions of years to form. The Cretaceous layer most likely would have.
The most common way an animal such as a dinosaur fossilises is called petrification. These are the key steps:
1. The animal dies.
2. Soft parts of the animal's body, including skin and muscles, start to rot away. Scavengers may come and eat some of the remains.
3. Before the body disappears completely, it is buried by sediment - usually mud, sand or silt. Often at this point only the bones and teeth remain.
4. Many more layers of sediment build up on top. This puts a lot of weight and pressure onto the layers below, squashing them. Eventually, they turn into sedimentary rock.
5. While this is happening, water seeps into the bones and teeth, turning them to stone as it leaves behind minerals.
This process can take thousands or even millions of years.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/how-are-fossils-formed.html
[Natural History Museum, London]
Sadly this has us down to a few thousand years but for a large heavy T rex fossil I would say we’re pretty safe. This is more likely to be at the higher end taking a lot longer. So many thousands of years up to a million?
Next quote:
Here’s How Dinosaur Fossils Are Formed – Step By Step
Fossil formation is a step-by-step process that begins when the animal dies and ends with the appearance of the fossil. It is a long, rare process that could take millions of years.
https://animalvivid.com/how-dinosaur-fossils-are-formed/
Sounds good. Another:
A dinosaur became a fossil after it died. The body may have fallen, or been washed into a river. The perished body may have laid on the bottom of the river floor and slowly the flesh rotted away. After that the skeleton of the dinosaur was gradually buried under the mud, and the minerals from the water seeped into the bones and preserved them. Over millions of years, the mud transformed into layers of rock and the skeleton of the dinosaur became a fossil.
https://www.paleontologyworld.com/paleontologists-curiosities-q/how-dinosaur-fossils-were-formed
And again:
The majority of fossils we find have gone through a geological process that impregnates them with minerals.
For this to occur the organism has to be covered by sediment soon after death, usually by mud or silt.
Water carrying dissolved minerals seeps into tiny holes and gaps in the organic material.
Once inside, these minerals form crystals and begin to fill the empty space within—something that can take millions of years.
https://museumsvictoria.com.au/article/know-your-bones-what-is-a-real-fossil/
So I think it is pretty safe to assume that our T rex fossil probably took a long long time to form. And the Cretaceous rock layer it was found in, probably millions of years. Assuming natural processes of course.
So that’s pretty much a slam dunk, game over.
Our T rex could not have been buried at the time of the Flood, much less the rock layer it has been found in formed since then approximately 4,000 years ago.
But there are still a couple of points to ponder. One of them changes the direction of everything. And it’s my bad, I should have been on top of this. I haven’t.
OK first the simple stuff.
I probably need to answer the query of is this circular reasoning?
Writing for a Young Earth Christian audience someone will probably say, well you got long ages here because that’s what these people believe. So sure you’re going to get ages to say millions of years.
It’s a good point. But I think I just might have an answer. In one of my discussions the problem of how long it took to form rock layers popped up. And an original quote I had suggested millions of years. And I used it.
But I felt it was probably wrong since we have fossils from the Late Pleistocene. Anyway I am going to put the complete text here of what I wrote from discussion 5. You’ll see what I mean.
Start of old text:
From a youtube video[3] referring to a doc by Scott Dunn about clay depositions says something like "Basic soil mechanics shows that consolidation times for 1000 m-thick clay layers are in the order of millions of years".
So a conclusion is that each rock layer may have taken millions of years to go from sediment to solid rock. That may not be completely correct.
Scott Dunn was discussing clay layers with a lot of water and it was taking a LOT of time for the water to drain out. Also the millions of years time is for 1000 m thick clay layers.
So layers that are not formed from clay and a lot less than 1000 m thick may take a lot less time.
Sure, still a lot of time but maybe less than a million years.
What got me on this track is realizing a lot of megafauna have been found from the Late Pleistocene which supposedly covers between c. 129,000 and c. 11,700 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene
Anyway if a lot of fossils have been found from Late Pleistocene rock layers, then these layers couldn't have taken millions of years to form.
Anyway the National Geographic quote suggests that fossils take a minimum of 10,000 years to form so we can take that as possibly the minimum rock layer formation time. [using natural processes of course]
End of old text.
Now the important thing here was Scott Dunn’s quote:
"Basic soil mechanics shows that consolidation times for 1000 m-thick clay layers are in the order of millions of years"
Nomatter what they want to believe, Young Earth Christians CANNOT ignore a quote about basic soil mechanics mentioning consolidation times of millions of years for rock layers, in this case clay layers.
So maybe my T rex Cretaceous rock layer would have needed more than a million years to form [allowing for natural processes].
Or maybe less. But still a lot of time and this would make it impossible to have formed since the Flood.
THAT does it as far as I am concerned.
The second part is more of a problem. As I said, my bad as I haven’t really been keeping on top of it.
The fossilization time for my T rex fossil I am probably not going to win. Sure, I believe it took a long time from a scientific standpoint [allowing for natural processes].
BUT apparently there has been a shift in the last few years from Young Earth Christians with respect to dinosaur fossil ages. And it’s ages, not the time required for fossilization, though the two link from the supposed time of the Flood.
A team of researchers gave ... 14C dating results from many bone samples from eight dinosaur specimens. All gave dates ranging from 22,000 to 39,000 years, right in the ‘ballpark’ predicted by creationists.
https://creation.com/en-au/articles/c14-dinos
I first thought this was strange since the ages were well beyond a supposed Creation 6,000 years ago.
But looking closer at the article this was explained as pre-Flood objects would have started with a much lower carbon ratio, and this would skew today’s results giving older ages.
The Bible is not a scientific textbook and I think some assumptions you have to be careful about. Like my assumption of no rain before the Flood. But when I bring that in I am talking from a 6,000 yr Christian perspective.
Anyway the point I am making here is that any time I set for say fossilization of dinosaur bones is simply going to be ignored because now they have made their own argument for the dinosaur fossils fitting the time line and can now be considered to have formed since the Flood.
So I can’t use the 10,000 yr rule or any other I construct for my dinosaur discussions. Excepting discussion 3, that’s purely from the fossil and rock record and the extinction of the dinosaurs. That one stands on its own.
As I said, this changes everything. So did I waste my time chasing fossilization times? Maybe. But it was a very interesting run and I do not regret that.
So what do I do?
Well I could refer to the soil mechanics quote and suggest that the Cretaceous layer for my T rex would need a lot longer than 4,000 years to form making it impossible for it to be formed since the Flood.
That does have some traction.
But the deposition of dinosaurs very quickly shows that they could not have been buried at the time of the Flood. That gets there quicker. So it doesn’t matter if they want to believe their fossils could have formed since then. They weren’t buried then. End of story.
So THAT is the tack I am going to take and rewrite my discussions making this the new backbone instead of the old 10,000 yr fossilization quote.
And maybe mention that the rock layer might have needed a million years to form anyway. Or less. So it doesn’t matter if they believe the fossil formed in less than 5,000 years, we would still have to sit around for about a million years or so waiting for the layer of rock to form around our fossil. Yeah, fun stuff!
REFERENCES
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Denbora_geologikoa.jpg
Denbora_geologikoa.jpg
Description
Basque: Scheme of geological time
Date 19 September 2020
Author: Koldo Biguri
This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
My changes:
Removed people and truck and bird; changed text to English, and fixed up the dates in line with
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_time_scale
as at 21 Sep 2023.
3.
The Mud Problem Precludes Young Earth Creationism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQcQSqH13xU
Gutsick Gibbon
Jun 14, 2024
OK not endorsing this site but there is a lot of interesting stuff here.
Note: this site is very much against a young Earth Creation.
My pics:
“Geologic Column” constructed using
"Denbora geologikoa" by Koldo Biguri, used under CC BY-SA 4.0.
“Geological Column”, licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0 by Stephen Buckley.
Licenses
CC BY-SA 4.0
Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International.
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/
Stephen Buckley
E-mail: snoaktrua [at] duck.com
Last revised: 13 Jul 2025.
Constructed: Apr 2025.
Companion pages
Page design/construction Stephen Buckley 2024,2025.
Snoaktrua